KRC 210x vs. PPP Race Warrior vs. Crazy Jay

[white lightning]

I am going to start by saying it looks like I fucked up.

According to my calculations, based on what I think I have learned recently, the PPP Race Warrior cam should have been a kick-ass cam. It should have made a lot of power in the low end & midrange, which is the rpm range my truck is in the most; more power than the Crazy Jay makes in the same areas.

The Crazy Jay is a good cam, and makes decent power, I am just thinking the PPP Race Warrior might have been even better for my application.

Several articles I have read about cam design have mentioned the importance of properly timed valve events, but have failed to say what that means in degrees of crank rotation.........

So, I have theorized that a cam with similar valve events to a KRC 210x should be a good street truck cam with good low-end power and a strong midrange.

The PPP Race Warrior has similar valve events to a KRC 210x:

PPP Race Warrior- 266*/268* @ .006", 214*/218* @ .050"
.353"/.356" lobe lift, .582"/.587" valve lift @ 1.65:1
110*+2* LSA, 108* ICL, 47* overlap
266/2 = 133 - 110 = 23 +2 = 25* BTDC intake open
25 + 180 = 205, 266 - 205 = 61* ABDC intake close
268/2 = 134 - 110 = 24 - 2 = 22* ATDC exhaust close
22 + 180 = 202, 268 - 202 = 66* BBDC exhaust open

KRC 210x- 262*/266* @ .006", 210*/214" @ .050"
.523"/.526" advertised valve lift, but Comp uses 1.6:1
rocker ratio to calculate valve lift, so lobe lift is probably
.327"/.329" which would = .540"/.543" valve lift
110*+4* LSA, 106* ICL, 44* overlap
262/2 = 131 - 110 = 21 + 4 = 25* BTDC intake open
25 + 180 = 205, 262 - 205 = 57* ABDC intake close
266/2 = 133 - 110 = 23 - 4 = 19* ATDC exhaust close
19 + 180 = 199, 266 - 199 = 67* BBDC exhaust open

Intake open is 25* BTDC for both, intake closes 4* later on PPP cam, Exhaust open is 1* later for PPP cam, exhaust close 4* later on PPP cam.
Looks like pretty darn similar valve events to me.

The slightly later valve events and 4* more duration would mean a bit less low-end on the PPP Race Warrior vs a KRC 210x, but theoretically on paper, the PPP Race Warrior should have almost as much low-end power as a KRC 210x does.

I am wondering why the KRC 210x performed so much better than the PPP Race Warrior in BlackTurboTruck's (formerly 07whitehemi) testing several months ago?? WTF?!? Does not make sense to me.........

Crazy Jay specs are:

263*/267* @ .006", 209*/214* @ .050"
.330"/.337" lobe lift, .545"/.556" valve lift @ 1.65:1 rocker ratio
112 LSA, 112 ICL
valve timing @ .006":
open close
intake: 19.5* BTDC 63.5* ABDC
exhaust: 65.5* BBDC 21.5* ATDC
41* overlap

The Crazy Jay cam with 112 LSA 112 ICL I ended up having installed is easier to tune and has a smoother idle than a 110 LSA cam.

The PPP cam's intake opens 5.5* earlier and closes 2.5* earlier than the Crazy Jay, the PPP's exhaust open/close events are only .5* later than the Crazy Jay's exhaust valve events, and the PPP cam has 037"/.031" more lift than the Crazy Jay.

Conclusion:
Somewhere around 1,500 rpm- 2000 rpm the PPP Race Warrior would begin to make more power than the Crazy Jay does and continue to make more power thru the entire rpm band up to 6,000 rpm or so..............

[daytonahemi392]

you have sufficiantly confused me.

[SharaDon]

Holy crap,,, you spent some time on this.......

The cylinder heads will also play a role in how the cam works.

All 3 of those cams are pretty similar. What truck they go into and how they work in each will be affected by the rest of the mod's to that truck.

You would have to test each in a completely stock truck to find which one is best,,,,,. Then it would change when you added a different mod.

Air filter to tail pipe...........

[RandTx]

You might want to recheck the 210x specs
think it's a 108 LSA +4

210/214-523/526 112 LSA KRC 210 Hemi RV CAM (Lift at 1.65 RR = 539/542)
210/214 523/526 111 LSA "special grind" (Lift at 1.65 RR = 539/542)
210/214 523/526 111 LSA +4 Gadier's cam (Lift at 1.65 = 539/542)
210/214 523/526 110 LSA +4 KRC 210 Hemi 110lsa (Lift at 1.65 = 539/542)
210/214 523/526 108 LSA +4 KRC 210X Hemi 108lsa (Lift at 1.65 = 539/542)

[white lightning]

you have sufficiantly confused me.

good! I went thru some confusion trying to understand some of this stuff:crazy:

[white lightning]

Holy crap,,, you spent some time on this.......

yes I did! I am trying to learn a few things. then apply what I've learned.

The cylinder heads will also play a role in how the cam works.

All 3 of those cams are pretty similar. What truck they go into and how they work in each will be affected by the rest of the mod's to that truck.

You would have to test each in a completely stock truck to find which one is best,,,,,. Then it would change when you added a different mod.

Air filter to tail pipe...........

right, and my truck has:
custom CAI with AEM dry-flo filter
Fastman ported TB
5.7 cnc big-valve heads with under-size valve stems & PSI 1511's
LT headers
3" true duals with Moroso spiral-flo mufflers

so, in theory, there is enough ability to move air in & out of my engine to make good use of the higher valve lift and 4* more degrees of duration of the PPP Race Warrior.

I was leaning toward 210/214 duration for a little more low-end, but looking at the valve events of the KRC 210x which is a proven low-end torque monster, the 214/218 PPP cam should have had a strong low-end too, especially if ptv clearance would allow for a 106* ICL.

So I will say it again:
I am wondering why the KRC 210x performed so much better than the PPP Race Warrior in BlackTurboTruck's (formerly 07whitehemi) testing several months ago?? WTF?!? Does not make sense to me.........

I remember reading 07whitehemi's 210x vs PPP Race Warrior cam thread here on NADODGE. Dude seemed to know what he was talking about, but the results of the cam comparison seem odd based on what I think I have learned.

[white lightning]

You might want to recheck the 210x specs
think it's a 108 LSA +4

210/214-523/526 112 LSA KRC 210 Hemi RV CAM (Lift at 1.65 RR = 539/542)
210/214 523/526 111 LSA "special grind" (Lift at 1.65 RR = 539/542)
210/214 523/526 111 LSA +4 Gadier's cam (Lift at 1.65 = 539/542)
210/214 523/526 110 LSA +4 KRC 210 Hemi 110lsa (Lift at 1.65 = 539/542)
210/214 523/526 108 LSA +4 KRC 210X Hemi 108lsa (Lift at 1.65 = 539/542)

just looked at KRC's website. you are right, the KRC Hemi 210x is now 210*/214* 108 LSA +4

pretty sure the 110 LSA +4 was called a 210x a while back though.

I think before SCT Hemi tuning was out, tuning a 108 LSA didn't go too well.

[sldhemi]

Good info here, kudos for taking the time to learn and understand this stuff

[white lightning]

Thanks!

[fastgraphite04]

This is my 210x camcard.....

[hemifever]

There is also the "pcm happy lobe ramps" factor.

I think Jay swapped out his crazy jay cam for a 268 and dropped .3 or something.

[daytonahemi392]

This is my 210x camcard.....


did you buy a gc srt8? is that why you got one in your sig?

[RandTx]

This is my 210x camcard.....
Well today he'd call that something else...

wonder why marty is always going on about the 210x 108 lsa's dyno numbers, yet his customers trucks show lsa's of 110 or or more?

and if the 210x he's selling now is a 108 +4? installed "straight up" at 104?
Does anyone have the current
"KRC 210X Hemi Camshaft 210/214 523/526 108+4 "
installed in a truck aside from Marty's dyno?
Does it run? timeslips?

[fastgraphite04]

did you buy a gc srt8? is that why you got one in your sig?

not yet.....:devil:

just thinking out-loud, if I get one, I think it would look good like this pic. thoughts??

[fastgraphite04]

Well today he'd call that something else...

wonder why marty is always going on about the 210x 108 lsa's dyno numbers, yet his customers trucks show lsa's of 110 or or more?

and if the 210x he's selling now is a 108 +4? installed "straight up" at 104?
Does anyone have the current
"KRC 210X Hemi Camshaft 210/214 523/526 108+4 "
installed in a truck aside from Marty's dyno?
Does it run? timeslips?

I was just posting my camcard Rand, sheeshz???:cuss: lol To answer your question, I'm not sure if anyone has the 104 ICL 210x. Maybe someone will throw one in and give it a try. I believe there are alot of those in the cars, but as far as trucks go, I really don't know. From a driveability standpoint I can only tell you from personal experience that the 106 ICL had no quirkiness at idle, in reverse, in park or anything. Basically ran just like the 6.1 cam as far as stock driveability goes. But it kicked the SH*T out of it in the torque dept. I really wish I'd gotten before and after dyno's of the 6.1 and 210x.

[RandTx]

I was just posting my camcard Rand, sheeshz???:cuss: lol To answer your question, I'm not sure if anyone has the 104 ICL 210x. Maybe someone will throw one in and give it a try. I believe there are alot of those in the cars, but as far as trucks go, I really don't know. From a driveability standpoint I can only tell you from personal experience that the 106 ICL had no quirkiness at idle, in reverse, in park or anything. Basically ran just like the 6.1 cam as far as stock driveability goes. But it kicked the SH*T out of it in the torque dept. I really wish I'd gotten before and after dyno's of the 6.1 and 210x.

lol I know you were just posting the card but since Marty is pushing the 108 these days and selling it as the 210x, if someone wanted to order a 210x (like yours) the wouldn't want to order a 210x
if that makes any sense :)
To me the 110 or 111 lsa cams make more sense to me, more proven track times and all.

[fastgraphite04]

lol I know you were just posting the card but since Marty is pushing the 108 these days and selling it as the 210x, if someone wanted to order a 210x (like yours) the wouldn't want to order a 210x
if that makes any sense :)
To me the 110 or 111 lsa cams make more sense to me, more proven track times and all.

:Tup: I think you can have it made however you want it. I was told the 106 ICL would be much easier for Sean to tune for everyday driving than the 104 one, so thats why I went with the 110/106. Gadier's made really good power the first time I ever took a spin in his truck, so for me I wanted to try something similar. His 2wd with 3.92's felt like a stroker to me, especially since I had a 6.1 cam with 3.55's in a 4wd pig. Heck, I'm only .36 faster than he was with the stock block, and I have a fairly huge cam in a stroker.

[hemifever]

I personally like the 110 lsa version the best. I think it's got the most consistent ET. The 108 seems to respond different in each truck whereas the 110 is always good. There's about 200 of the hemi 210 cams out there.

When Luke was installing for Inertia he put in a 110+4 in SCA's durango and said he couldn't believe how much power it gave and said it made the Durango respond like an LX. That was based on all the cam's he was normally installing

And funny about the 108+4. The first 5.7 Charger in the 12's was Marty's and it used a 108+4 210 cam. It had a B&G pcm and was back in '05. He was bashed for posting a fake time slip because nobody else had been in the 12's and his mph was too low for an LX. That's okay though lol. I actually got to tune that Charger about 8 months ago with Diablo. It was faster than my srt8.

[white lightning]

There is also the "pcm happy lobe ramps" factor.

would you please explain?

the ramp speeds from .006" to .050" look similar to me:
210x: 263*/267*- 210*/214* = a difference of 53*/53*
PPP Race Warrior: 266*/268*- 214*/218* = a difference of 52*/50*

are there are big lobe ramp differences past .050" lift? that is one part of the specs I don't know much about.

I do know the PPP Race Warrior is supposed to have asymmetrical lobes that have faster opening ramps than closing ramps.

I think Jay swapped out his crazy jay cam for a 268 and dropped .3 or something.

I think part of that faster time is from swapping out ported stock-valve heads for big valve heads.

the 268 should run faster 1/4's since it is 216*/220* vs 209*/214* on the Crazy Jay.

[SharaDon]

I have an old COMP book that list's lobes for custom cams. You can order, for example. Lobe A(intake) and W(exhaust) on ?LSA. Each lobe is listed to make your own custom cam. The book is probably 15yrs old.
@.050
@.100
@.150 ect... lobe lift

The lobe is a huge factor in how the air column starts moving into the cylinder.

[white lightning]

so most likely the lobes of the PPP Race Warrior are in your Comp custom cam book, since the PPP cam I had was ground by Comp.

what approximate lobe configuration is ideal to move an air column into a cylinder efficiently?

[sldhemi]

so most likely the lobes of the PPP Race Warrior are in your Comp custom cam book, since the PPP cam I had was ground by Comp.

what approximate lobe configuration is ideal to move an air column into a cylinder efficiently?

comp owns one of the only core manufacturing companies in the US, not to mention they have top of the line R&D so just about any lobe design out there can be had through Comp.

as for what lobe configuration is ideal, it all depends on the heads and their port design.... this is why almost all of the "better" combinations out there have custom cams. cams designed to work best with the heads and overall engine configuration

[white lightning]

I personally like the 110 lsa version the best. I think it's got the most consistent ET. The 108 seems to respond different in each truck whereas the 110 is always good. There's about 200 of the hemi 210 cams out there.

When Luke was installing for Inertia he put in a 110+4 in SCA's durango and said he couldn't believe how much power it gave and said it made the Durango respond like an LX. That was based on all the cam's he was normally installing

And funny about the 108+4. The first 5.7 Charger in the 12's was Marty's and it used a 108+4 210 cam. It had a B&G pcm and was back in '05. He was bashed for posting a fake time slip because nobody else had been in the 12's and his mph was too low for an LX. That's okay though lol. I actually got to tune that Charger about 8 months ago with Diablo. It was faster than my srt8.

so do you have any 110+4 vs. 108+4 timeslips and dyno's?

did Marty run a 110+4 in his LX before the 108+4? if yes, same additional mods with both cam? CAI, exhaust, etc.?

does Marty still have his "fake" timeslip? if yes, will you please post it? I have heard about this timeslip several times, but have never seen it.

[hemi1569]

so do you have any 110+4 vs. 108+4 timeslips and dyno's?

did Marty run a 110+4 in his LX before the 108+4? if yes, same additional mods with both cam? CAI, exhaust, etc.?

does Marty still have his "fake" timeslip? if yes, will you please post it? I have heard about this timeslip several times, but have never seen it.

A member on this board has a 210x 108+4 that is going in his truck with longtubes, sct... We will see what it runs in a couple weeks.

[white lightning]

comp owns one of the only core manufacturing companies in the US, not to mention they have top of the line R&D so just about any lobe design out there can be had through Comp.

good to know!

as for what lobe configuration is ideal, it all depends on the heads and their port design.... this is why almost all of the "better" combinations out there have custom cams. cams designed to work best with the heads and overall engine configuration

which brings me back to "Looks like I fucked up".

the PPP Race Warrior is designed (by a Comp engineer, I assume) to work with PPP Stage III heads. if this is the case, I stepped down to an "o.k." cam (Crazy Jay) for StageIII heads vs. an "ideal" cam for StageIII heads (PPP Race Warrior)

[white lightning]

A member on this board has a 210x 108+4 that is going in his truck with longtubes, sct... We will see what it runs in a couple weeks.

who?? I want to watch for a thread on the results.

[sldhemi]

good to know!



which brings me back to "Looks like I fucked up".

the PPP Race Warrior is designed (by a Comp engineer, I assume) to work with PPP Stage III heads. if this is the case, I stepped down to an "o.k." cam (Crazy Jay) for StageIII heads vs. an "ideal" cam for StageIII heads (PPP Race Warrior)

correct, not that the crazy jay is a "bad" cam, but the PPP was designed to work with your heads.. where as with the crazy jay it was a matter of, it "should" work well with my heads


i try explaining this to people about my dads truck when i go to the track... everyone assumes its got a "big" cam. but its actually pretty small. but the heads/cam was all done by the same shop and designed to work together

[white lightning]

correct, not that the crazy jay is a "bad" cam, but the PPP was designed to work with your heads.. where as with the crazy jay it was a matter of, it "should" work well with my heads

right. and 20/20 hindsight, I should have gone with my gut and had the PPP cam installed instead of getting de-railed by 07whiteram's 210x vs PPP Race Warrior results. I think the dude was/is a KRC installer, so his objectivity could have been a bit skewed...........

my 1st reaction when I opened the cam box from PPP was "not what I ordered" (ordered a 210/214 110+3), but after I read the cam card, it seemed like a good grind too. my installer thought it was a good grind for my mods too........ should have stuck with that.

my 2 cents:
on forums like NADODGE, we should work together, not against each other.

good end results of a build should take precedent over brand loyalty. if you like Brand X and Brand Y has a good product too, admit it. don't give slanted test results. tell it like it really is, so others can make accurate, informed choices.

i try explaining this to people about my dads truck when i go to the track... everyone assumes its got a "big" cam. but its actually pretty small. but the heads/cam was all done by the same shop and designed to work together

may I ask what the spec are?

[dr.ruff84]

I really don't think brand loyalty takes effect to much here. Dt was getting real bad, but it seems the few guys that did do that over there aren't on as much.

my cam is a 212 214 108+4 I don't have any track times yet with my new BV heads and cam but it pulls like a mofo.

[sldhemi]

right. and 20/20 hindsight, I should have gone with my gut and had the PPP cam installed instead of getting de-railed by 07whiteram's 210x vs PPP Race Warrior results. I think the dude was/is a KRC installer, so his objectivity could have been a bit skewed...........

my 1st reaction when I opened the cam box from PPP was "not what I ordered" (ordered a 210/214 110+3), but after I read the cam card, it seemed like a good grind too. my installer thought it was a good grind for my mods too........ should have stuck with that.

my 2 cents:
on forums like NADODGE, we should work together, not against each other.

good end results of a build should take precedent over brand loyalty. if you like Brand X and Brand Y has a good product too, admit it. don't give slanted test results. tell it like it really is, so others can make accurate, informed choices.



may I ask what the spec are?

thats why i pretty much stick to myself on decisions that i make, if i had told everyone the specs on my cam when i first ordered it everyone would have said i was stupid and it wouldnt have worked because no one with stock bottom end had gone that big. but i sent the little bit of info on the heads that i could pry out of Stu to the cam guy and thats what he sent me back. between heads and the cam my truck picked up .4 in the 1/4 with 60ft staying the same and a stock converter over the 268 with stock heads.

my dads truck is a completely stock bottom end LQ9 with heads/cam from Pete Incaudo at Vmax Motorsports. the cam thats in it right now is a 220/224 .58x/.58x lift (i cant remember exact) 114+4... with this cam it made 427rwhp and the best pass ive made was 12.15 at 108 with a slipping transmission

[hemifever]

I emailed a 5.7 Charger customer of mine with the following mods and he said he's done a 13.42 with a full tank of gas and he says "heavy stereo equipment".

"My car is an '07. I have mopar longtube headers, 40 series flowmasters, no cats or resonators, mopar cai, mopar stall converter, removed MDS, stock heads with upgraded valve springs, 210/110 cam, and diablo programmer"

[white lightning]

I really don't think brand loyalty takes effect to much here. Dt was getting real bad, but it seems the few guys that did do that over there aren't on as much.

that's good.

my cam is a 212 214 108+4 I don't have any track times yet with my new BV heads and cam but it pulls like a mofo.

212/214 is almost a single-pattern. got a good tune on it yet? any surging?

any idle vids? 108 LSA should have a mean lope!

at about what rpm does your butt-dyno register more power with this cam than stock cam? does this grind make power up top, or die off on the top-end?

[white lightning]

thats why i pretty much stick to myself on decisions that i make,

gettin' to that point myself.

if i had told everyone the specs on my cam when i first ordered it everyone would have said i was stupid and it wouldnt have worked because no one with stock bottom end had gone that big. but i sent the little bit of info on the heads that i could pry out of Stu to the cam guy and thats what he sent me back. between heads and the cam my truck picked up .4 in the 1/4 with 60ft staying the same and a stock converter over the 268 with stock heads.

good gain!!:Tup:

my dads truck is a completely stock bottom end LQ9 with heads/cam from Pete Incaudo at Vmax Motorsports. the cam thats in it right now is a 220/224 .58x/.58x lift (i cant remember exact) 114+4... with this cam it made 427rwhp and the best pass ive made was 12.15 at 108 with a slipping transmission

what is a LQ9? 12.15 @ 108 with tranny trouble is movin'!

so you have a truck, and your dad has a different truck?

[white lightning]

I emailed a 5.7 Charger customer of mine with the following mods and he said he's done a 13.42 with a full tank of gas and he says "heavy stereo equipment".

"My car is an '07. I have mopar longtube headers, 40 series flowmasters, no cats or resonators, mopar cai, mopar stall converter, removed MDS, stock heads with upgraded valve springs, 210/110 cam, and diablo programmer"

13.42 with a full tank of gas and "heavy stereo equipment" and the listed mods is pretty good.

so do you have any 210/214 112+4 vs. 110+4 vs. 108+4 timeslips and dyno's? I would like to see what differences there are in dyno curves and 60', 330', 1/8, 1000' & 1/4 times. see how much power is being made, and WHERE it is being made.

did Marty run a 110+4 in his LX before the 108+4? if yes, same additional mods with both cam? CAI, exhaust, etc.?

does Marty still have his "fake" timeslip? if yes, will you please post it? I have heard about this timeslip several times, but have never seen it.

[sldhemi]

gettin' to that point myself.



good gain!!:Tup:



what is a LQ9? 12.15 @ 108 with tranny trouble is movin'!

so you have a truck, and your dad has a different truck?

an LQ9 is a production GM 6.0.... Ive got my hemi and at one time I had the chevy, I had traded an LS1 trans am for it. but running it at the track, street racing, and daily driving wasnt exactly ideal (street racing being the main reason the trans took a dump) so i sold it to my dad and got a DD.

[dr.ruff84]

that's good.



212/214 is almost a single-pattern. got a good tune on it yet? any surging?

any idle vids? 108 LSA should have a mean lope!

at about what rpm does your butt-dyno register more power with this cam than stock cam? does this grind make power up top, or die off on the top-end?

My mistake my cam is 212/214 112+4 had a brain fart their for a second.

I can't remember what my stock cam felt like but this cam blows my hhp 260 out of the water. Power comes on a little bit earlier and just pulls and pulls. it's a torque cam but i actually don't feel a drop off. track times will tell for sure my butt dyno never works right.

As for a tune hardly any surging, very slight surge at 14-1600 rpm but nothing major.

Track times coming in the next 2 weeks.

[hemifever]

does Marty still have his "fake" timeslip? if yes, will you please post it? I have heard about this timeslip several times, but have never seen it.

I'll check but I doubt it, that was quite a while back. The customer was posting slips the quicker it ran. Did heads...cam....exhaust, B&G, tires and a 3400 converter. As they added parts it was quicker and quicker. The converter took it from a 13.2 into the 12's. That was the final kick.

My SRT ran a 13.41 on the one and only time I've run it down the track and this Charger beat me last year when I was getting it off B&G and on to Diablo lol. A dealer in my state had the car and called Marty due to the KRC stickers. It would cut off backing out of a parking place and putting it in drive due to that 108 lsa. He dropped it off with me for a week and I drove it daily playing with the tune.

[white lightning]

I'll check but I doubt it, that was quite a while back. The customer was posting slips the quicker it ran. Did heads...cam....exhaust, B&G, tires and a 3400 converter. As they added parts it was quicker and quicker. The converter took it from a 13.2 into the 12's. That was the final kick.

My SRT ran a 13.41 on the one and only time I've run it down the track and this Charger beat me last year when I was getting it off B&G and on to Diablo lol. A dealer in my state had the car and called Marty due to the KRC stickers. It would cut off backing out of a parking place and putting it in drive due to that 108 lsa. He dropped it off with me for a week and I drove it daily playing with the tune.

did you get the tune smoothed out? is 108 LSA too tight to run right with the current tuning tools?

now that Diablo has ironed out some kinks, how do you like it vs. SCT?

I am currently using U7137 Crom 9t07d. it feels better than 9r04, 9r02 and other earlier Croms, and I logged a bit over 1 tenth faster time with 9t07d.

[FAhemiST]

I am currently using U7137 Crom 9t07d. it feels better than 9r04, 9r02 and other earlier Croms, and I logged a bit over 1 tenth faster time with 9t07d.
i am currently running the 9ro5, do you know what was added in the 9t07d? or was it just a fix for the missing trans features?

[white lightning]

9t07d was to get back trans support for '05's that didn't have trans support with 9r05 or 9r06. Johan also put some improvements into the 9t07d tuning. no clue what, he said "I added some tweaks that work well".

9t07d also has throttle sensitivity adjustment. I turned mine up +15%, and it adds some snap to throttle response. I like it! and you can turn MDS off if you have it.

if you want to try 9t07d, PM me your e-mail address. I don't know how to attach a file to a PM here.

[hemifever]

Here is fastgraphite04's truck after he put the 210x cam in. 3.55 gears with 20's on launching w/o power brake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj24aIcd200

[Orangecrush]

9t07d was to get back trans support for '05's that didn't have trans support with 9r05 or 9r06. Johan also put some improvements into the 9t07d tuning. no clue what, he said "I added some tweaks that work well".

9t07d also has throttle sensitivity adjustment. I turned mine up +15%, and it adds some snap to throttle response. I like it! and you can turn MDS off if you have it.

if you want to try 9t07d, PM me your e-mail address. I don't know how to attach a file to a PM here.

I updated mine Saturday, the throttle sensitivity definitely adds a little kick to the truck, I set mine +20% just for shits and giggles and like it.

[hemi1569]

Here is fastgraphite04's truck after he put the 210x cam in. 3.55 gears with 20's on launching w/o power brake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj24aIcd200

Was that on a wet road? Before or after tq install?

[hemifever]

Was that on a wet road? Before or after tq install?

Perfectly dry road. 80+ degree's temp. That was directly after a cam only change. His tq converter has been in for years. Full street trim with his factory 20's and 3.55 gears.

[hemi1569]

What cam did 07whitehemi have in his truck? I know it was a 210x but was it a 112 or 110?

[hemifever]

What cam did 07whitehemi have in his truck? I know it was a 210x but was it a 112 or 110?

His was a 110 as well.

[hemi1569]

He still working on getting the bugs out of his turbo truck? That thing was gorgeous.

[white lightning]

I updated mine Saturday, the throttle sensitivity definitely adds a little kick to the truck, I set mine +20% just for shits and giggles and like it.

9r07? I tried +20%, seemed about the same as +15%, but maybe I didn't drive the +20% tune tweak enough miles to feel the full effect. glad you like the new Crom!

[white lightning]

Here is fastgraphite04's truck after he put the 210x cam in. 3.55 gears with 20's on launching w/o power brake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj24aIcd200

seen that vid before. I tried to buy that cam from fg04, got there too late. didn't see the 210x 4sale thread soon enough.

got a 210x 108+4 question:
by my calculations, 263*/267* 108+4 LSA 104* ICL has a 27.5* BTDC intake opening and a 21.5* ATDC exhaust closing. is there enough PTV clearance in a stock internals 5.7 Hemi for this cam to be installed @ 104* ICL?

[white lightning]

What cam did 07whitehemi have in his truck? I know it was a 210x but was it a 112 or 110?

His was a 110 as well.

and it was my understanding that 07whitehemi compared the 110 LSA 210x to a 110 LSA PPP Race Warrior in his '07 Ram, and said the 210x was a much better cam.

what heads & valve springs were used in that test? the .582"/.587" lift of a PPP Race Warrior may not work well with 6.1 springs, and probably needs cnc big-valve 5.7 heads to produce the power it could potentially make with the right set-up.

[hemifever]

07whitehemi had the PPP bv cnc heads along with the cam. He said the 210x was more responsive off the line and had better part throttle response.

Saying that....I honestly expected the PPP cam to be the same. He installed that cam and immediately we noticed the tone change in the exhaust at idle. It didn't sound as deep and healthy. he put the 210x back in and it was great. Put the PPP back in and it did the same thing. He swapped those cams about 3 times back and forth and then left the 210x in. The PPP cam would spin mostly through 1st gear and the 210x would carry him into 2nd gear.

From what I recall, the PPP was supposed to be a Comp grind. Which is why I expected it to respond identical to the 210x. It was about a month late getting to him and he was told the cam was going to come from a different manufacturer. This is where you can't quote me....I'm pretty sure it was NOT a comp grind. I don't recall what base grind it was. Who knows if it was even a correctly ground cam. Just idling you could tell it didn't sound as good.

He had the "custom" pushrods and the 6.1 pushrods and tried both out and neither gave the cam the response of the 210x

[hemifever]

got a 210x 108+4 question:
by my calculations, 263*/267* 108+4 LSA 104* ICL has a 27.5* BTDC intake opening and a 21.5* ATDC exhaust closing. is there enough PTV clearance in a stock internals 5.7 Hemi for this cam to be installed @ 104* ICL?

There are quite a few 108 lsa 210x cams out there in factory piston trucks. There are probably 200 hemi 210 cams of different flavors out there

[sca]

I

When Luke was installing for Inertia he put in a 110+4 in SCA's durango and said he couldn't believe how much power it gave and said it made the Durango respond like an LX. That was based on all the cam's he was normally installing

.:devil:

[white lightning]

yeah, if the cam was ground wrong that would explain alot. I've wondered about that too. I take it the cam didn't get checked in a cam doctor to see if it was messed up?

on paper, based on valve events, lift and duration, the PPP Race Warrior should have almost as much low-end power, similar- maybe even stronger midrange, and more topend power than a 210x.

the PPP Race Warrior I had was ground by Comp, I think most of PPP's cams are from Comp.

if the bv heads were stage III, 6.1 pushrods are WAY too long. PPP stage III heads have longer valve stems than stock. my installer used an adjustable pushrod to find .030" lifter pre-load, which took pushrods slightly shorter than stock.

are the 108 lsa 210x cams in factory piston trucks installed "straight up" at 104* ICL, or did they need to be retarded for proper ptv clearance?

[PWR_Andy]

this thread is amusing. The KRC cam was barely faster and it had 1000ft better DA. Once the timeslips were DA corrected, the PPP cam was faster but he liked the lope of the 210 better.

His cam was ground by comp, that is the only company that PPP has ever used. The cam was profiled by Ed Curtis of Flowtech Induction and ground by Comp, not sure why hemifever is so confused on that one.

David,
I hope you get everything straightened out as I still believe the 214/218 to be the best cam with that combo.

[hemifever]

this thread is amusing. The KRC cam was barely faster and it had 1000ft better DA. Once the timeslips were DA corrected, the PPP cam was faster but he liked the lope of the 210 better.

His cam was ground by comp, that is the only company that PPP has ever used. The cam was profiled by Ed Curtis of Flowtech Induction and ground by Comp, not sure why hemifever is so confused on that one.



Stephen tested both cams on the same day for general driveability and street performance. He went to the track more than once with them. They went back and forth on the ET winner if I can recall. On the street however, in the same day with both cams, the KRC cam had much better response and would tote the wheel spin a "gear" farther. The track ET was close enough each time that he made a decision on which cam to keep 100% on the street response.

The 2 cams were basically identical and should have had the same performance results. Changing duration a couple of degree's isn't gonna make a difference in these trucks. I didn't care which he kept I just wanted him to stop swapping them so much. it was wearing me out lol

[white lightning]

this thread is amusing.

what's funny? I am not trying to be funny.

The KRC cam was barely faster and it had 1000ft better DA. Once the timeslips were DA corrected, the PPP cam was faster but he liked the lope of the 210 better.

supposedly the 210x had better street manners.........but until I have the $$$$ to do the comparison myself, who knows.

The cam was profiled by Ed Curtis of Flowtech Induction

meaning the cam was specifically designed to work with PPP Stage III heads?

if yes, that brings me back to what I've said before: I fucked up by not installing the PPP Race Warrior cam in my truck.


David,
I hope you get everything straightened out as I still believe the 214/218 to be the best cam with that combo.

Thank you Andy. Can you contribute a cam or $$$$ to the "Put a Race Warrior in David's Truck" fund?? :D

[white lightning]

The 2 cams were basically identical and should have had the same performance results. Changing duration a couple of degree's isn't gonna make a difference in these trucks.

which brings us back to the distinct possibility that the Race Warrior cam Stephen got was ground wrong.

since the thread Stephen wrote appeared to be an info thread to help people pick a good cam, I think it would have been appropriate to run the PPP cam through a cam doctor to see if it was ground right when it did not perform as expected.

Stephen spent many hours playing musical cams. what's a little more time checking how the cam was actually ground??

[hemi1569]

what are the specs on the race warrior

[PWR_Andy]

what's funny? I am not trying to be funny.



supposedly the 210x had better street manners.........but until I have the $$$$ to do the comparison myself, who knows.



meaning the cam was specifically designed to work with PPP Stage III heads?

if yes, that brings me back to what I've said before: I fucked up by not installing the PPP Race Warrior cam in my truck.



Thank you Andy. Can you contribute a cam or $$$$ to the "Put a Race Warrior in David's Truck" fund?? :D

Sorry, cant offer any money towards it, lol.



which brings us back to the distinct possibility that the Race Warrior cam Stephen got was ground wrong.

since the thread Stephen wrote appeared to be an info thread to help people pick a good cam, I think it would have been appropriate to run the PPP cam through a cam doctor to see if it was ground right when it did not perform as expected.

Stephen spent many hours playing musical cams. what's a little more time checking how the cam was actually ground??

All FTI cams are cam doctored before they leave comp, if it was off, we would have known ahead of time.

The whole street manners were better doesnt really carry much weight with me neither does the tire marks on the ground. Too many variables there. At the track, they had identical 60ft times and identical 1/4 mile times with a very slight advantage going to the 210x which had much better air also. When corrected, the PPP cam was faster.

what are the specs on the race warrior

214/218 or something similar.

[hemi1569]

You guys are the only ones i know of that does not release cam specs...:gay2:

[PWR_Andy]

You guys are the only ones i know of that does not release cam specs...:gay2:


What are you talking about? I dont work for PPP and all my specs are on my website.

PPP Cam Specs: Click on the image gallery and go to picture 2 to see specs.
http://purehorsepowerperformance.com/pppcustomcamperyourrequest-1-1.aspx

I go even further and give all the details.

http://pwrparts.com/PW-216-PWR-1624-144.htm

[white lightning]

The whole street manners were better doesnt really carry much weight with me neither does the tire marks on the ground. Too many variables there. At the track, they had identical 60ft times and identical 1/4 mile times with a very slight advantage going to the 210x which had much better air also. When corrected, the PPP cam was faster.

good points.

and I have wondered if Stephen is biased toward KRC products.......

[white lightning]

what are the specs on the race warrior

PPP Race Warrior:
266*/268* @ .006"
214*/218* @ .050"
.353"/.356" lobe lift
.582"/.587" valve lift @ 1.65:1
110*+2* LSA, 108* ICL
266/2 = 133 - 110 = 23 +2 = 25* BTDC intake open
25 + 180 = 205, 266 - 205 = 61* ABDC intake close
268/2 = 134 - 110 = 24 - 2 = 22* ATDC exhaust close
22 + 180 = 202, 268 - 202 = 66* BBDC exhaust open
47* overlap

[Hemidup]

PPP Race Warrior:
266*/268* @ .006"
214*/218* @ .050"
.353"/.356" lobe lift
.582"/.587" valve lift @ 1.65:1
110*+2* LSA, 108* ICL
266/2 = 133 - 110 = 23 +2 = 25* BTDC intake open
25 + 180 = 205, 266 - 205 = 61* ABDC intake close
268/2 = 134 - 110 = 24 - 2 = 22* ATDC exhaust close
22 + 180 = 202, 268 - 202 = 66* BBDC exhaust open
47* overlap

PPP based their lift with RR of 1.65. RR is actually 1.60 which makes their advertised lift #'s lower than advertised.

[white lightning]

PPP based their lift with RR of 1.65. RR is actually 1.60 which makes their advertised lift #'s lower than advertised.

actually, the cam card had gross valve lift @ 1.6:1 rocker ratio, but I thought the new Hemi's have a 1.65:1 rocker ratio??

cam card said .353"/.356" lobe lift, so that would be .565"/.569 gross valve lift @ 1.6:1 rocker ratio

[Hemidup]

actually, the cam card had gross valve lift @ 1.6:1 rocker ratio, but I thought the new Hemi's have a 1.65:1 rocker ratio??

cam card said .353"/.356" lobe lift, so that would be .565"/.569 gross valve lift @ 1.6:1 rocker ratio

Can't argue with NHRA. Negative .001" in cam lift spec's will make you a hero, positive over .001" will get you DQ'd.

[sldhemi]

Yup the information Chrysler released to NHRA is 1.6 rocker ratio

[RandTx]

Can't argue with NHRA. Negative .001" in cam lift spec's will make you a hero, positive over .001" will get you DQ'd.
You'd need some specifics on the what they are calling rocker ratio. I'd guess it's rocker arm radius one divided by rocker arm radius 2
which doesn't necessary mean that cam lobe x RR = valve lift because of the other geometry is not parallel and and the push rod it's somewhat dynamic increasing the effective rocker ratio ( angles of push rods and valves)

[PWR_Andy]

PPP based their lift with RR of 1.65. RR is actually 1.60 which makes their advertised lift #'s lower than advertised.

PPP never used 1.65, they have always used 1.60.

You'd need some specifics on the what they are calling rocker ratio. I'd guess it's rocker arm radius one divided by rocker arm radius 2
which doesn't necessary mean that cam lobe x RR = valve lift because of the other geometry is not parallel and and the push rod it's somewhat dynamic increasing the effective rocker ratio ( angles of push rods and valves)

Very interesting, didnt know this.

[Hemidup]

PPP never used 1.65, they have always used 1.60.



Very interesting, didnt know this.



PPP Race Warrior:
.582"/.587" valve lift @ 1.65:1

[sldhemi]

You'd need some specifics on the what they are calling rocker ratio. I'd guess it's rocker arm radius one divided by rocker arm radius 2
which doesn't necessary mean that cam lobe x RR = valve lift because of the other geometry is not parallel and and the push rod it's somewhat dynamic increasing the effective rocker ratio ( angles of push rods and valves)

It took me a second read over but I see what your saying... The valve stem isn't parallel to the pushrod therefore travel on either one differentiates. But I thought that was calculated in with rocker ratio... It can't affect it that much though I would think

[Hemidup]

Yup the information Chrysler released to NHRA is 1.6 rocker ratio

At least someone else is keeping in touch with real world NHRA racing rules. ;)

[PWR_Andy]

PPP Race Warrior:
.582"/.587" valve lift @ 1.65:1

Wasnt my quote. The OP stated that he is the one who figured it up at 1.65 but that the card stated 1.60.

[RandTx]

It took me a second read over but I see what your saying... The valve stem isn't parallel to the pushrod therefore travel on either one differentiates. But I thought that was calculated in with rocker ratio... It can't affect it that much though I would think
Actually quite a bit. I'd like to the diagrams and proceeure for checking that the rocker arm is 1.600 ratio.

It's actaully an interesting spec, if they do allow aftermarket rockers. The end curve atop the valve would allow for quite a bit of deviation from 1.6 depending on exactly how they would inspect a rocker to verify it meets specifications.


Wonder on those motors If they have a cam lobe lift spec, do they also have a valve lift spec aside from the rocker ratio spec?
That could be a catch all that could limit what you could do while still using a 1.6" RR rocker.
That whole thing should get interesting one you get a number of people involved in the build who are experts at going beyond specifications while still conforming to the letter of the specs and rules.. (nascar engine and car builders come to mind)

[white lightning]

You'd need some specifics on the what they are calling rocker ratio. I'd guess it's rocker arm radius one divided by rocker arm radius 2

that's what I thought. center of valve stem to center of the fulcrum on the rocker shaft dv. by center of the fulcrum on the rocker shaft to the center of the pushrod = rocker ratio.

which doesn't necessary mean that cam lobe x RR = valve lift because of the other geometry is not parallel and and the push rod it's somewhat dynamic increasing the effective rocker ratio ( angles of push rods and valves)

didn't know that.

on my engine, ratio of lobe lift to valve lift is close to 1.65:1.
My cam's lobe lifts are .330"/.337" and gross valve lift measured at the valve stems is .545"/.556", which is why I thought the Gen III Hemi had a 1.65:1 rocker ratio.

don't know what the actual rocker ratio was, didn't measure it.

[Hemidup]

Actually quite a bit. I'd like to the diagrams and proceeure for checking that the rocker arm is 1.600 ratio.

It's actaully an interesting spec, if they do allow aftermarket rockers. The end curve atop the valve would allow for quite a bit of deviation from 1.6 depending on exactly how they would inspect a rocker to verify it meets specifications.


Wonder on those motors If they have a cam lobe lift spec, do they also have a valve lift spec aside from the rocker ratio spec?
That could be a catch all that could limit what you could do while still using a 1.6" RR rocker.
That whole thing should get interesting one you get a number of people involved in the build who are experts at going beyond specifications while still conforming to the letter of the specs and rules.. (nascar engine and car builders come to mind)

As you know Randy, lift is determined by rocker ratio. Building Stock Eliminator engines require that you follow strict rules and tolerances that Mopar submitted to NHRA. You can safely run under the numbers, but you'll get DQ'd if you .001" over whether it be the intake or exhaust lobe. Mopar submitted to NHRA a rocker ratio of 1.6 with a max lift of .584" on the intake side. Too be safe, our cams are ground with a 1.6 RR @ .582" and we bought an additional 40 intake and exhaust rocker arms to get a blueprinted matched set that will also be blueprinted to the camshaft per individual intake and exhaust lobe.

From NHRA..... Camshaft must retain stock lift for horsepower claimed per NHRA Technical Bulletins. Maximum lift is limited to .430" or OEM, whichever is greater. Lift checked at valve retainer, with zero lash. Hydraulic lifter cam will be checked with pushrod and rocker as run, plus solid lifter, at zero lash. Plunger height of checking lifter will match extended height (no preload) of hydraulic lifter. Hydraulic lifter may not be plugged or bottomed. yada, yada, yada.....

[RandTx]

so is 584 the valve lift of the stock cam (production engines) or are they allowing a larger cam, then limiting such increase by, cam lobe lift, valve lift and rocker ratio?
Sounds pretty locked in. do they spec cam duration limits and ramp rates or just lifts and rocker ratios?

[Hemidup]

so is 584 the valve lift of the stock cam (production engines) or are they allowing a larger cam, then limiting such increase by, cam lobe lift, valve lift and rocker ratio?
Sounds pretty locked in. do they spec cam duration limits and ramp rates or just lifts and rocker ratios?

.584" is OEM. You must use stock rockers or NHRA approved aftermarket rockers which must weigh the same or heavier than stock. No one has submitted an aftermarket rocker arm as yet so we're all stuck with using OEM rocker arms.

There is no limit on duration or ramp rates, just lift.